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Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2004 15:00:06 -0500
From: joel@whitemoose.ca
To: doug@noto.net, Todd@noto.net
Cc: TheriaultJoel@hotmail.com
Subject: Fwd: (Text Ommitted: Court Case Name ommitted)
Have either of you guys had a chance to read through my forestry proposal? Do
you have any questions? Any practical concerns?
Second, I would appreciate it if NOTO could inform me why (Text Ommitted: Court case name ommitted)
should not concern me as a future tourist outfitter. I have seen no change to
the method in which forestry roads are built in the vicinity of remote tourism
lakes (in light of : Text ommitted - Court case names ommitted), but i'm sure that there must be a
very good explanation for this...
Third, I was told that there was a board of directors for NOTO. How do I get
into contact with the board?
As always, eagerly awaiting a response...
Joel Theriault
P.S. I will CC both of you when the report to Rob Galloway goes over...
P.S. When should I expect some statment made on Behalf of NOTO regarding the
White Moose issue. It would seem that a middle ground that would satisfy all
would be to remove the moose, which are white, from the general population and
put them into protective, fenced in areas (or an island like the spirit
bears)...
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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 21:54:07 -0500
From: joel@whitemoose.ca
To: Todd Eastman NOTO <todd@noto.net>
Subject: RE: Joel...
Sorry Todd...
Didn't at all mean to offend you...and didn't really think that I was misquoting
you by saying that you felt they shouldn't be protected (Text Added: Link to where Todd writes that he feels they shouldn't be protected).
That is what it will
mean if no legislation is put into effect and you are advocating that
legislation should not be put into effect. You want to educate locals and
travelers of the uniqueness of these animals, tell them all that there are only
4 in the whole province and less than 20 in the world. Then go on to tell them
that hunting season starts Early October for rifle and hunters are absolutely
free to harvest these "unique" animals, for meat or trophy. Lets get realistic
and understand that people don't go to Africa on hunting trips because they want
the meat. People don't target big bucks because they want the meat (because
once they're old, it tastes like shit anyways). People don't target 12 pound
walleye because they taste good. People go to africa and shoot Rhinos, target
Big bucks, and 12 pound walleye precisely because they are "unique" and "rare".
So, basically what I understand out of your letters is that you want to promote
the uniqueness of these animals so that every trophy hunter will realize how
rare these animals are and also that if they want to shoot one, it's absolutely
legal... Is this understandable?
Is this really what NOTO stands for? The only
solution I can foresee is that NOTO wants
the White Moose put into protective
habitat... Lets promote their uniqueness and know that they are going to be
protected as best we can… Spirit Moose? Spirit Bear?….. Can NOTO as a tourist
organization allow the last remaining White Moose to be harvested by hunters
given the huge possibility for financial tourism gain from these limited
animals (which evidently are fit for human consumption according to the MNR)?
I'm really working hard to keep a relationship with NOTO to go through some
issues and make some changes, and so keep in mind that I would not purposely be
"rude" or make misstatements regarding what you've said. I've had plenty of
opportunity to post your emails up on the net and send them around to the
outfitters. I would say that they speak for themselves. I haven't...That
should be some indication that I'm trying to work with you, not against you...
From the start, it has never been my intent to take down NOTO, but strengthen
it…
Secondly, I’m really not sure what the difficulty is in understanding the
stumpage rate issue (probably because I wrote the proposal) and so you're
response that you don't understand it doesn't offend or bother me. I just need
to know what sections are perfectly clear so that the appropriate revisions can
be made. This way, the proposal will be absolutely clear for others...
Hope to hear from you soon with questions regarding the proposal of reducing
stumpage rates in the vicinity of remote tourism lakes...
(Text ommitted regarding court cases and stumpage rages)
Joel Theriault
Quoting Todd Eastman NOTO <todd@noto.net>:
Joel,
If you begin to misquote me again I will not respond to any future
correspondence you send out on any matter.
I did not say that white moose should not be protected- I indicated that
legislation was likely not appropriate and a better course of action
would be to educate locals and travellers on the uniqueness of the white
moose.
I am still trying to get through your stumpage idea- having a difficult
time- not certain at this point if your idea is sound- need some more
time.
Once again- my patience for your attitude, rudeness and false
accusations is limited.
(Text Added: It's unfortunate that individuals may misunderstand my position or words, but I'm usually pretty careful not to single any one out, be rude, or make false accusations. Todd is apparently upset because he feels that my letter to Doug, NOTO's head and Todd's boss, made him look less favorable to the idea of protecting the white moose. However, if you carefully read Todd's statements regarding white moose protection and then read what I indicated was his position, the two are not seemingly a "false accusation", as Todd had indicated. Sorry for the misunderstanding Todd@NOTO.Net )
Consider carefully how you refer to things I say if you wish to have any
future dealings with me.
Doug will have to get back to you on the white moose issue.
Todd
Todd C. Eastman MFC
Lands & Forests Issues Manager
NOTO "The Voice of Nature & Outdoor Tourism in Ontario"
tel. 705 472 5552 ext. 22
fax. 705 472 0621
todd@noto.net
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Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2004 15:12:09 -0500
From: joel@whitemoose.ca
To: doug@noto.net, Todd@Noto.net
Cc: TheriaultJoel@hotmail.com
Subject: Joel...
Hey guys,
Hope all goes well...
I needed to ask you what your view was regarding lowering stumpage rates in the
vicinity of tourism lakes so that forestry companies can do the additional work
necessary to harvest without destroying the viability of the tourism camp. I'm
getting significant grief from the MNR about the idea, and since neither I, nor
the MNR had heard anything from NOTO, i figured I'd ask.
So here's the question:
Does NOTO support a reduction in stumpage rates in the vicinity of tourism lakes
so that additional expenditures in forestry, necessarily incurred by better
protecting remote tourism, are compensated by the government. It should be
noted that this is not an expenditure, but a short term investment by the
government in its economy...
Also, 2nd question. Doug, you had indicated that NOTO would support me on the
White Moose issue in so far as saying that they should be protected but not
through legislation due to practical problems. I realize its difficult
(practically)but the essence of what your saying is that NOTO would be
supporting the fact that out of province hunters could legally enter Ontario,
and shoot the remaining 4 white moose, the last of the herd.... Many of us have
been pushing to have them seperated from the population and placed into captivity
(in a sort of viewing area)...Would this be acceptable to NOTO, without any
legislation? I'm still eagerly awaiting NOTO's letter regarding the official
position, because all i've got for posting right now, are letters between
myself and Todd indicating that they should not be protected, and I can't
imagine that this is consistent with NOTO...."The voice of nature and outdoor
tourism"? ... The term "ECOTOURISM" immediately comes to mind when i think of
placing these animals into protective habitat...oh...also, diversity of
employment, sustainability of employment, increased employment opportunities
from natural resources...
At any rate, please respond asap...
Joel
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 20:27:42 -0400
From: joel@whitemoose.ca
To: Todd Eastman NOTO <todd@noto.net>
Subject: RE: White Moose stuff...important
Take my arguement for what you will...but remembering that at one time science
proved that the earth was flat...at another time science proved that the earth
was the center of the solar system....now putting science aside...Will NOTO
back this?
Joel
And I really don't need to prove that the moose is it's own species....it's
sufficient to say that their numbers are limited...likely more limited than any
other animal with a "genetic abnormality". Further more, let me know if you
speak for NOTO or not. It would seem that by definition of the agency, NOTO
should be the one actively pursuing this subject, not rivaling with me to fight
it. It just doesn't make sense Todd...Please explain where you could possibly
be comming from and why NOTO hasn't already endorsed it? My view of the agency
is already botched and this is not helping...
Joel@WhiteMoose.ca
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Quoting Todd Eastman NOTO <todd@noto.net>:
Again Joel, do you have any scientific evidence to prove that the white
moose is its own species?
I am not discounting its tourism potential but I am trying to determine
if your argument is a valid one (e.g. hunting of a nearly extinct
species).
Please turn me to the science- this is of interest to me.
Todd C. Eastman MFC
Lands & Forests Issues Manager
NOTO "The Voice of Nature & Outdoor Tourism in Ontario"
tel. 705 472 5552 ext. 22
fax. 705 472 0621
todd@noto.net
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Date: Fri, 1 Oct 2004 00:49:44 -0400
From: joel@whitemoose.ca
To: Todd Eastman NOTO <todd@noto.net>
Subject: RE: White Moose stuff...important
Please tell me your joking and not acting on behalf of NOTO regarding this
message. Do you have any idea what this would do for tourism in Ontario? Have
you spoken with NOTO's constituents regarding the issue to determine what their
desired course of action would be?
Joel
And regarding political threats...spring bear hunt....prime example...it may not
be nice...but it gets the job done...
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Quoting Todd Eastman NOTO <todd@noto.net>:
Joel,
Do you have any scientific evidence that proves the white moose to be
its own species?
I view the white moose as a genetic variation and as such, I don't see a
need to develop special protection and/or guidelines.(Text Added: Does this mean that NOTO, the Voice of Nature and Outdoor Tourism in Ontario is against the idea of mandating legal protection for what is likely the rarest variation of any land based mammal?)
I would encourage you to educate people locally and encourage hunters to
leave them alone but I am not certain an aggressive lobbying effort,
which involves threats to a political party or official is appropriate.
If you have hard science to support your position you may be o.k.
Todd
Todd C. Eastman MFC
Lands & Forests Issues Manager
NOTO "The Voice of Nature & Outdoor Tourism in Ontario"
tel. 705 472 5552 ext. 22
fax. 705 472 0621
todd@noto.net
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